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[Brian]

Hey guys,

Jeff I know you have to compare it to something, and the Deva is the obvious choice.  There is no denying that Zaxcom has blazed the path for the Non linear digital recorder.  I think that the way the two manufacturers approach their machines is totally different, night and day, therefore the people that use them respectively might have a different approach to the machine they would be comfortable with.  We all have clothes that we wear, we just have different clothing that suits our taste.  Sometimes we think our wordrobe is better than others....because we paid good money for it and we own it:)

As to the line inputs:  You are correct.  It basically evens out everyone because your preamp is now the wireless input that you prefer(Lectro, Zax, Micron,Audio Ltd).  I would guess that you and Richard have a mixing console before going into the Deva. I know you have a cooper, and Richard might have one to, I don't know. I don't have a mixer.  I am a much younger mixer that has embraced the compact nature of the recorder/control surface era recently.  I only use wireless booms when I have to.  My work is not in feature Films but in Commercials, Docs, and television.  I hard wire most of the time.  I mix right on the cantar, not even with Cantar-em.  This is where I am coming from.  I used the Deva over the shoulder and it was the wrong tool for the job. This is where my comment comes from.  I am a mixer that relies on the microphone inputs 99% of the time.  This is why I see a big difference, and I have the experience with both machines in the same environment to prove it.  That's all I was saying.

Richard, I was not laughing at you, I was simply amused by the comment.  I hope your not offended and if you where I apologize.  It just seemed funny to me at the time.  It was the comment about how it only turned one way... it just put a smile on my face, that's all.

I know Deva owners love the touchscreen, but I was reflecting on my only experience with Deva.  I love the Screen too!! It's beautiful to look at when mixing.

Richard again, I hope your not offended by the term "folks that roam around here"  I should have said "active posters" or "The mixing community" Yet again I apologize if I used the wrong language.

I am going out on limb here to speak for the Cantar community... about the Screen.

"It's the touch screen of the Deva that I really enjoy. I find it interesting that some Cantar fans embrace the iPhone and love it's touch screen but dislike the Deva?"
Brian, I'm not sure if you are an iPhone user but perhaps you could answer that question for us "folks that roam around here."

I would think that the mixers who own Cantar don't dislike the Deva for the Screen.   We all know that mixers around the world always have different experiences with the Recorders that they use than others do.  Some mixers fall in love right away, and never look back.  Some blame the manufacturers support for their choices.  The list goes on and on, but one thing is for sure, for me, it's not the touchscreen that I dislike.

Hope that answers all that has been asked.  By the way, I am enjoying this discussion a lot.

Thanks for the Forum Jeff, I really enjoy the freedom of information here.

Brian Hanish

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

Brian,
"Although Richard finds the Nagra style wheel difficult, and Weird that it turns only one way(sorry but that one made me laugh,)"

In my own defense of my post (I started this thread) almost a two years ago I never said that I found the Nagra style "Main Selector" at all difficult. I began my career on Nagra III's so I personally found it a nice throwback to the analogue era. I also never 'dissed' the Cantar, I enjoyed working with it and later said,
"After working with it for 12 hours I can now understand why it is designed that way and I appreciate it. Each user makes their choice based on the application they will use the machine for.

If I was on a shoot in which I had to work primarily over the shoulder and in very hostile conditions the Cantar would be an excellent choice. It's designed with that in mind."

I expressed my personal observations of working with the machine for the first time on a feature film with out the opportunity to field test it in advance. I've had the opportunity to mix with all of the current HD recorders and I still find the Deva to be the most intuitive and the easiest to operate with no prior time on the machine.

You swear by the microphone pre-amps -- great, another satisfied Cantar owner. You found the Deva's touchscreen problematic -- (No, I did not laugh at that one.) Many Deva owners enjoy that feature the most.

I will repeat my statement I made in April of 2008; "It's the touch screen of the Deva that I really enjoy. I find it interesting that some Cantar fans embrace the iPhone and love it's touch screen but dislike the Deva?"

Brian, I'm not sure if you are an iPhone user but perhaps you could answer that question for us "folks that roam around here."

Regards,
RL
 

[Jeff Wexler]

"Sorry, ranting here, but it seems that when someone picks up the Cantar to "test" or "Compare" they are using the Deva.  Try it the other way around and I would say that a Cantarist would find the Deva to be a huge learning curve and a bit confusing at first."

I don't think you are ranting, but again there is a simple reason why "someone (who) picks up the Cantar to 'test' of 'Compare' they are using a Deva". The simple fact is the Deva has been around a lot longer than the Cantar (actually, a lot longer than any of the other recorders) and there are a whole lot of people using the Deva. Additionally, if we are talking about comparisons, not just the "first look" from someone who has had no experience with other file-based recorders, we have to compare the Cantar to something don't we?

I notice as well that you have made no comment regarding my mention of the common use of LINE Inputs on these recorders.

[Brian]

"I have listened to the mic preamps on the Cantar, Fostex, Sound Devices and Deva, and they all sound pretty much the same... that said, my preference over ALL of these professional recorders is the sound of my Cooper 208 mic preamps."

Well, to me they do not all sound the same.  For me the difference is quality of sound, and limiter function, two of the most used and appreciated functions.  Most of the people I have surveyed, make note that the Cantar is comparable to Nagra D judging from sound quality and limiter function.  These are two of the attributes that I found lacking in Sound Devices and Deva.  Just my observation, no one else.

Although Richard finds the Nagra style wheel difficult, and Weird that it turns only one way(sorry but that one made me laugh,) I find that the touch screen becomes a liability when you take it of the cart.  It turned me off the Deva to have to go into the menu to set the preamp gain.  Now that makes it very difficult to work properly.  Sorry, ranting here, but it seems that when someone picks up the Cantar to "test" or "Compare" they are using the Deva.  Try it the other way around and I would say that a Cantarist would find the Deva to be a huge learning curve and a bit confusing at first.

Just my two cents.  I don't hate Deva or Sd, I just Love Cantar.

Brian Hanish

Briann

The great thing is we have such great choices now.  Based on budget you can get anything you want for whatever price you are willing to pay.

[Jeff Wexler]

And that other funny thing that I don't here people talking about.... How the machine sounds.  It's the best sounding recorder to my ears.  The limiters are the best, period.
Brian Hanish
Cantarist.

There is a very good reason why you don't always hear people talking about "How the machine sounds" (and this is also something which is not talked about very much as well). This issue does point out the differences that exist in the ways of working particularly in the US compared to many other countries. The issue is the inputs and how they are used. I have discussed this many times in the past specifically in relation to the widespread use of WIRELESS even for the primary boom mic. I think it is totally appropriate to say and I think almost everyone agrees, that if you are going LINE IN to your recorder the playing field in terms of what the recording "sounds" like from one recorder to another is totally level. If one does hear ANY difference when playing back the file made by any of these recorders then you are not using a professional recorder. The only differences, the only way one file could sound better or worse than one from another recorder would be the quality of the A to D converters used. I think we can agree as well that most all of the professional (and expensive) recorders use essentially the same converters.

So, if you are plugging a standard microphone directly into the input of the recorder, one recorder could certainly sound better (or at least different) than another. I have listened to the mic preamps on the Cantar, Fostex, Sound Devices and Deva, and they all sound pretty much the same... that said, my preference over ALL of these professional recorders is the sound of my Cooper 208 mic preamps.

[Jeff Wexler]

Choice, it all boils down to choice.  Why wait for a classroom to teach you your recorder, just pick it up and go!!!
Brian Hanish
Cantarist.

This is always the best advice. Actually "just pick it up and go" and spend quality time with any of the machines will give you a much better feeling for what you like or don't like about it. We can spend all day reading about the various machines, the learning curve, ease of use, how it "sounds" and so forth, but you never really get a clear picture until you spend the time with it.

I spent several hours with the Cantar and realized that it was not the machine for me. Lots of things to like and appreciate but just not for me.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Brian]

Hey guys,

Thought I would chime in.  There are few times where the Cantar gets mentioned online.  I have been fortunate to work with Deva, Sound Devices, and Cantar.

I now own a Cantar.  I find it really hard to swallow when some of the folks that roam around here talk about the "learning curve of the Cantar"  All machines have a learning curve.  I read more than once from a few mixers that the Deva and 788t were getting very complex because of all the additional features being added.

Yes I am biased.  I love the Cantar and would not record with anything else. For me it is the only way to go. I have had both Deva and 744t over the shoulder.  These experiences were not fun.  The Deva was by far the worst.  It crashed multiple times in hot weather, I found the pre amps not to my liking.

That being said, I know the Deva had no intentions of being in the bag.  On a cart I see it as one of the first choices.  I just think the Cantar does everything very very well.  It's not confined to a cart or a bag.  When you get to know the Cantar, it's more intuitive than any other machine.  It actually makes you work less... not more.  And that other funny thing that I don't here people talking about.... How the machine sounds.  It's the best sounding recorder to my ears.  The limiters are the best, period.

I like how it's built.  Maybe if I spent a lot of time with Deva I could learn to love it, but my initial meeting with it put me off.  Yes I like the IPhone....for my phone, not for my recorder.

Great discussion, and I hope we have more like it.  I love Cantar, I don't hate Deva or Sound Devices.

Choice, it all boils down to choice.  Why wait for a classroom to teach you your recorder, just pick it up and go!!!

Brian Hanish
Cantarist.

[wbrisett]

what do you guys use to "touch" the screen?

I keep a PDA pen in my bag, but I always forget to grab it, so I just stick to my finger. The only time this really is a problem is when I'm trying to enter metadata when I'm using the recorder over the shoulder.

Wayne

[old school]

My apologies if this is drifting off topic, but I use my finger on my Deva4. I have used my recorder in below freezing temps, as well as 110 and above many times and had no problems so far.
CrewC
ps I'm sure running any machine becomes second nature when you get used to it.

[Jeff Wexler]

what do you guys use to "touch" the screen?
.... a lot of my customers have received them from me, (like the greenies or tweakers when you get a lectro wireless) and they love them . beats using there finger. for instance I gave a bones and cross styled pair to the mixer on bones.
thanks.

Hey, Frank, I never got one... Hello Kitty Pink would be fine. I still use a chopstick, cut to a useable length, and that seems to work fine. Stuck a little piece of velcro on it and it sits on the cart (or on the Deva) where I can grab it easily. I notice that Glenn Sanders always uses his finger tip but that requires a certain sort of finger and a level of precision I am not able to make work. I did try the various stylus' that are available for PDA's but did not like using those --- they are all too small and designed to fit into a slot on the PDA (and Zaxcom never did put a place to park a stylus on the Deva) so I don't use those.

-  Jeff Wexler

[FSBELLA]

I think there is an old post here where a mixer (Sarokin I think) was working in the bitter cold in a mine of some sort, with a Deva, and it worked fine.

Philip Perkins

what do you guys use to "touch" the screen?

 I bought a handfull of high end chopsticks (that sounds weird) with rounded tips. and also at your local shopping malls. there are stores (mostly aimed at tweens) called Claire's, its right next to a apple store in my local mall. they have these cool sticks that are used for ladies or girls to hold together a hair bun. they come in all sorts of custom styles and colors. a lot of my customers have received them from me, (like the greenies or tweakers when you get a lectro wireless) and they love them . beats using there finger. for instance I gave a bones and cross styled pair to the mixer on bones.

thanks.

[Philip Perkins]

I was very worried about the touchscreen even when Glenn Sanders first proposed the idea before even making any shipping Deva with the screen. After using my own Deva and also continuing to pursue very diligently any reports of screen failure, I am not worried at all anymore. It is an indisputable fact that if the touchscreen should fail, we would be pretty much be out of luck, but fortunately all indications are that there have been probably 2 or 3 failures in the over 500 Devas in use. The screen is not expensive and is easily replaced in the field as well. The sunlight problem is an issue but for the work that I do it has never been a problem. As for moisture, use of gloves and so forth, and in comparing to the iPhone touchscreen, these are 2 totally different technologies. The Deva screen does not appear to be affected by moisture and the screen responds to any sort of touch. The Iphone on the other hand Apple clearly states that the screen responds only to bare (human?) flesh, like an ungloved finger, so use of the iPhone with gloves on is probably not possible.

-  Jeff Wexler

I think there is an old post here where a mixer (Sarokin I think) was working in the bitter cold in a mine of some sort, with a Deva, and it worked fine.

Philip Perkins

[Philip Perkins]

I came to production sound from radio production, where we used remote controlled tape machines (Ampex ATR 100, Otari 5050, etc.).  Operating the Nagra (4 series) was not intuitive and had to be learned.

Absolutely.  Not like any machine before or since.

Philip Perkins

[FSBELLA]

I have designed this class for the end user and since Aaton vendors already know the machine I don't see them coming.

I figured you would say something like that. usually informative classes, ALL people are welcomed. but I guess I "belong" to the dark side you despise so much.
no problem. I will stick to the touch screen recorder anyhow.

[wbrisett]

As for the touch screen question, my dislike is how the sun, moisture and gloves affect it, even the iPhone suffers especially with gloves. If the screen were to fail, how do you access/control the device since everything is designed around it?  I too have used the Deva 5 and was over the shoulder with it and it wasn't designed for that work style, IMO.

I suppose that's the rub. When I bought my Deva IV, it had the four pots, but no way to control the other four channels other than the input channel trims. I discussed this with Glenn and he promised to come up with a way to control the other channels. About two months later, a firmware update was released and soft faders were introduced. Having the ability to change and add features by simply redesigning the software and screens I find an advantage. However, you're absolutely right, what happens if the screen fails? Although I don't know a single instance where the  screen itself failed, usually it's something else.

Ironically I do almost every non-musical event over the shoulder with the Deva and find it works quite well in this environment, although there are a few things that are a bit tough (metadata for example).

Both of these recorders obviously do a wonderful job or we wouldn't have people debating them on RAMPS and other places, but they work differently. Kind of the Mac vs. PC thing. Both can do the same job, just differently.

Wayne